This is a friendly exchange between brother Keith Sharp and myself concerning an article he wrote in his email letter www.christistheway.com 

My first response

Hello Keith, 
greetings from Peter Vandbuerie, Belgium Europe. 
Thank you for your email. I appreciate your thoughts and enjoy reading the articles. When reading the first article I read some things I must say I think are really not correct. 
Here follow some thoughts: 

A Christian has no right at all to pick up any weapon and kill someone. It is forbidden to do so when Jesus commands us to love our enemies. 
To teach otherwise is really bad and it comes short to Gods perfect law of Christ, which is love. If you read 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 you will see that killing someone is not justified at all. 
Under the law of Moses innocent blood was also shed, so you cannot refer to the old law to justify the use of deadly force at all when for a self proclaimed "just cause." Under the old law it was God Himself who commanded the killing of ungodly nations. 
Jesus however now teaches us to 'love our enemies'. There is no love at all in killing them. Acting where God forbid is sinful for it is written "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord." Romans 12:19. So when God uses nations to rise up against nations than that is His sovereign right to do so. 
This teaching of authorized killing is only taught by American brethren and by the congregations throughout the world with American evangelists. 
America and the American Christians have taken a position that they think they are the just tool in Gods hand. Unless American Christians have received a prophecy from God that this is so, this is a false thought. Let me stress out that America is an ungodly kingdom as any other kingdom in the world. America is maybe even more ungodly then some other earthly kingdoms. And we are not to fight with any worldly kingdom, we are to fight the spiritual warfare for God's kingdom. And as has been seen by the world, there is no just war at all being fought in Iraq, nor in Afghanistan. 
Iraq or Afghanistan have as much right to fight against the ungodly nation America as America thinks it has. 
Who says God didn't use Osama bin Laden to punish the wickedness of America? If this is the case, then according to your standpoint, American Christians should start killing Americans. But like the Bible says: "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Galatians 6:7 How this is true for the nation America. 
I hope you will think over these things. 
Brotherly greetings, 
Peter Vandebuerie.

Keith Sharp's first reply

Dear Peter, 
I appreciate your sincere, courageous response to my article. It was not my purpose to defend American foreign policy. America as a nation is most certainly not God's chosen people; His church throughout the world is (1 Peter 2:9-10). 
However, Romans 13:1-8 explicitly gives civil magistrates the power to uphold justice by the use of lethal force. The sword (Romans 13:4) is an instrument of death. Civil government is God's ordained institution to take His vengeance on evil doers in time, i.e., before death and the judgment (Romans 12:17 - 13:7). Civil rulers and officers exercise love by promoting the greater good of all - protection from criminals (and criminal nations) and vengeance for crimes committed (Romans 13:1-8). When enforcing justice with lethal force they are acting as God's ministers (Romans 13:1-4). 
The congregation where I regularly preach is about half military, and the purpose of my article was to encourage soldiers who are Christians to remain faithful to the Lord while in war zones. 
With Brotherly Love, 
Keith

My second response

Hello Keith, Thank you for your reply. 
I agree with you on your position of Romans 13 that a nation bears the sword not in vain. I do not disagree with this. My point however is, that the reason I quoted 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 is that love is the individual Christian's responsibility. Avenging however is NOT a Christian's individual responsibility. so the question is not "Does God use nations to punish other nations?" We agree on that matter. 
The question should be, "Can a Christian pick up a weapon and kill someone?" Then the answer must be "NO". Christians are to love their enemies. Christians are citizens of heaven who do not avenge themselves; let alone avenge in name of an ungodly nation. (Romans 12:17-21) 
A Christian who kills another human being is in direct violation of the command to 'love their enemies'. (Luke 6:27). "But I say unto you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you. 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them that despitefully use you." 
So, if a Christian in the Iraq army kills a Christian in the American army, was it then justified? This then was the will of God? 
Greetings, 
Peter Vandebuerie.

Keith Sharp's second reply

Dear Peter, 
When a civil officer uses lethan force to uphold justice, he is not killing a personal enemy. Thus, Luke 6:27-28 has no application. He is acting as God's minister in avenging evil and upholding justice, therefore enabling innocent people to live in a peaceful, just society (Romans 13:1-7). It makes no difference whether the civil officer is a Christian or an alien sinner, for the law of Christ applies equally to all (Mark 16:15; Ephesians 1:22-23). 
Brotherly, 
Keith

My third response

Hello Keith, 
Thank you for your time and effort in e-mailing with me about this matter. I appreciate it greatly. 
In order to understand you better I wrote down some questions. 
1. If an American Christian soldier kills an Iraqi unbeliever, is he then avenging? 
2. Is he avenging in God's Name? 
3. On what basis is this avenging authorized? 
4. Is the ungodly nation of America the avenger of God? 
5. If a Christian in the Iraq army kills a Christian in the American army, was it then justified? 
6.Where are Christians commanded to act as an avenger for evil? 
7. If Luke 6:27-28 is not applicable because it talks about a personal enemy, isn't it also then that romans 13:1-7 is not applicable for the personal Christian to be part of, since the right to avenge is only given to the government and the christian is only to submit? 
8. How is it possible that one who is not to avenge his own enemies, can avenge other enemies? 
9. Isn't a Christian to pray for authorities and peace instead of acting as an avenger to enable peace (1 Tim 2:2)? 
10. What do the following words mean? Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, 'Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.' Is it justified by Jesus to kill this man? 
11. Why is it that the kingdom of God war isn't taught anymore, yet citizens of that very kingdom do teach war? Isa. 2:4; Micah 4:3 (And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more) 
Brotherly, 
Peter 

Keith Sharp's third reply

Dear Peter, 
I hope you realize that, while sending me questions that I admit are difficult, you simply are refusing to deal with the text that proves my position true - Romans 13:1-7. Rather than dealing with Scripture, you ask entrapping questions (cf. Matthew 22:15-40). The inspired apostle Paul declares that civil officers are God's ministers when they use lethal force to administer justice. Civil government as the administrator of justice by the use of lethal force is ordained of God. 
I am not interested in justifying American involvement in Iraq, nor do I intend to be drawn into a political discussion. We can have political differences and still be brethren. I will not answer questions that deal with politics. I am an evangelist, not a politician. I will answer any serious effort to deal with the meaning and application of Scripture. 
The fact you repeatedly talk about Christians in the Iraqi Army proves your questions do not seriously deal with reality. 
National governments as well as individuals may become so unjust they deserve to be destroyed (cf. Revelation 18:1-8). 
Now, to answer your questions so far as I can do so without advancing a political position: 
(1 and 2) It makes no difference whether one who deserves to die is a Christian or an alien sinner. Paul, a Christian, was willing to be put to death if he had committed a crime deserving death (Acts 25:11). 
(3) if it is just, Romans 13:1-7 authorizes it. 
(4) The ungodly nation of Rome was God's avenger on the ungodly nation of Israel (Matthew 21:33-43), as was the ungodly nation of the Chaldeans (Habakkuk 1:1-6). In so far as these nations acted justly, they did right. In so far as their brutality exceeded justice, they brought just punishment on themselves. 
(5) Is he upholding just law of brutality? 
(6) Christians are never commanded to act as avengers. But anyone, saint or sinner, is authorized to be a civil officer and avenge evil by Romans 13:1-7. God has one law for both Christians and aliens (Ephesians 1:22-23). It is righteous for anyone to be a minister of God. 
(7) The civil officer, whether Christian or alien, who uses lethal force to administer justice is not taking personal vengeance but is acting as the minister of God (Romans 13:1-7). 
(8) Romans 13:1-7 
(9) He may do both (Romans 13:1-7) 
(10) Matthew 26:52 is a proverbial statement. No one denies policemen and soldiers live dangerous lives (as do firefighters). Jesus instructed His disciples to take a sword (Luke 22:36). 
(11) The kingdom of God is spiritual (Romans 14:17), and it's weaponry is spiritual (2 Corinthians 10:3-6; Ephesians 6:10-20). The nations of men are fleshly, and their weapons are fleshly. We may be loyal citizens both of the kingdom of heaven and a nation of men (Matthew 22:21). We may exercise the citizenship rights of a nation of men (Acts 22:23-29), and demand its armed protection from evil doers (Acts 23:12-33). If it is right to demand protection by those who justly use lethal force, it is right to supply this force (Ephesians 5:11). 
Brotherly, 
Keith

My fourth response


Hello Keith, 
Thank you for your reply. 

I will try to deal with all you say, if you notice me missing something you think I should respond to, just let me know. It is not at all my intention to ask entrapping questions, but the questions I ask are those which come to my mind in honestly dealing with this matter.

Romans 13:1-7.
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God, and those who resist shall receive for themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same,
4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Therefore ye must be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For this cause pay ye tribute also, for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

What do these verses teach?

1. Every person is to subject to all higher powers (in reference to earthly kingdoms), because they are ordained by God.
2. Those who resist higher powers resist the ordinance of God and therefore shall receive damnation.
3. Because rulers are a terror for evildoers and if you don't want to be afraid of them then you should do good.
4. Because rulers are ministers of God for men, but if you do bad then they bear the sword not in vain, because God ordained them as an avenger to execute wrath for evildoers.
5. So a Christian must subject to them not only out of fear but as a duty towards God.
6. Because God commands Christians pays taxes to them, they are Gods ministers to punish evildoers
7. Therefore a Christian must subject to them and give all to whom it is due.

What does Romans 13:1-7 NOT teach: that a Christian is to join the minister God uses to avenge evildoers, it is nowhere written is these verses, but you keep referring to them. Instead Romans 13:1-7 teaches that God uses the wicked to punish the wicked. Paul instructs Christians are not to take vengeance on evildoers (Romans 12:19), because that is a given right for earthly rulers by God ordained. (1 Peter 2:13-14!!!) 

I am saddened by the reaction to not want to be drawn into a political discussion, because you said the following in your article: 'You have the right to serve as a soldier and to use lawful, deadly force when necessary (Romans 13:3-4), but you cannot allow war to reduce you to a hate filled butcher' and 'Your military enemies violently oppose your faith. The temptation they pose is to cause you to become like them but in opposition to them, to hate and to kill through hatred.' You are telling your brethren that they are justified in being where they are, as long as they do not kill as a hate filled butcher. Well, then you take a political standpoint that the wars being fought are just. You then cannot hide behind the fact that you are an evangelist, while in your article you take political standpoints. But in not wanting to be a stumbling block to you I will try to be careful in saying things.

1.2.3. Indeed, Paul said what he taught, that if he did wrong, he would undergo the punishment of Gods avenger, the worldly powers. Did he say he would join the avenger in executing wrath? NO! So Keith, what you need to do is to show the verse where it is taught that a Christian can join the avenger of God.

4. I agree with you that God uses wicked nations to punish wicked nations, but again this does not at all prove or say that a Christian can join the punisher. And another thing, you cannot use the Old Testament wars to justify modern wars. The wars of Israel were often unprovoked aggression and extermination, fought under Gods command (Exodus 23:31-32; Deut 20:10-19). It was a war because God had made a right judgement over the wicked nations and not because a nation was provoked to fight a just war. So you cannot compare the two. Who then decides what a just war today? You? Did you receive a prophecy from God which wars are just and which aren't?
The problem some Christians are dealing with is nationalism, they have become partisans of an earthly kingdom. 

7. Well, I think your thought is not right in this. God has a law for Christians and that is:
"because as He is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17).
"Jesus answered, ‘My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews. But now is My Kingdom not from hence.’ (John 18:36)
(Luke 19:10) "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
If Christians are nowhere commanded to act as avengers, but to seek and save the lost, why then do you teach this? God through Paul and Peter clearly stated He uses the rulers of the world to punish the wicked. (John 19:11) You add to this teaching. Up till 2 centuries after the death of the apostles this was NOT taught, why not? Because the citizens of Gods Kingdom do not teach war anymore (Isaiah 2:4) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9)

8. So, a Christian may not avenge his own enemies, but can avenge in name of a wicked nation? 

9. I missed the scripture where it is authorized to do both, maybe you can give it. Romans 13:1-7 does not authorize a Christian to do this.
10. So, you are implying that Jesus here says his disciples to arm themselves to fight? "But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39). If you do not mean that, then what do you mean by quoting this verse and then please explain why Jesus commands His disciples in Matthew 26:52 not to fight with the sword. Why would all that reach for the sword die by the sword?
11. I agree with you up till the last sentence, that is just an addition and assumption from you to what the Bible teaches. Nowhere the bible teaches that a Christian has a right to supply this force. And I do not understand your referral to Ephesians 5:11.

Brotherly, 
Peter

Keith Sharp's fourth reply

My dear brother, I do not question your honesty or sincerity, but I do not think you have come to grips with arguments I made from the Scriptures. The key is still Romans 13:1-7. You admit that civil rulers are acting as ministers (servants) of God when they punish evil doers, but you claim it is a sin for a Christian to do this. What is sin for a Christian is sin for an alien sinner, and vice versa, since God has one law for all (Mark 16:15; Ephesians 1:22-23). So, by your logic, one sins by acting as a minister of God. Your determination to call all governments "evil" and "wicked" underscores this fact. If all government is evil, God ordained evil. That makes God evil. 

God commanded Moses to build Him a tabernacle (Exodus 25:8-9,40). When Moses built that tabernacle, he acted as God’s minister or servant (Hebrews 3:5). Thus, the ultimate Builder of the tabernacle was God (Hebrews 3:4). What God ordains He does. If He ordains evil and wickedness, He is evil and wicked. Surely, neither of us is ready for such blasphemy.
God ordained civil rulers to use lethal force to uphold justice (Romans 13:1-7). When civil rulers use such force to uphold justice, they are acting as ministers of God (Ibid). If civil rulers are evil and sinning for using deadly power to punish evil doers, then God is evil and sinning, for He ordained them, and they are His servants.
In Romans 12:19, the Lord commands, "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord." To avenge ourselves is to take personal vengeance. This is forbidden. We must leave this to God.
But Romans 13:1-7 reveals that civil government is God’s minister to take this very vengeance. If some brute injures me, I cannot seek to "get even" (Romans 12:17-21; Matthew 5:38-42). But I can report him to the police, and they can act as God’s ministers to take God’s vengeance. They are not avenging a wrong done to them personally; they are doing the work of God.

Dear brother, I wrote nothing for or against the war in Iraq. I simply tried to point out to young soldiers how to remain faithful to the Lord while serving in combat. They must determine for themselves whether they are upholding justice or not. When a Christian becomes a soldier, he still is a Christian with a conscience and must answer to God for his conduct. He has the right to use deadly force but only in a legal manner to uphold justice (Romans 13:1-7).
If Paul agreed to be put to death if he were worthy of death, and he did, then it is right for civil officers to put to death someone worthy of death. It is not wrong for a Christian to do right.
First John 4:17 says not one word abut God having a separate law for Christians. Certainly we are to be like Him. Don’t assume one is not being like Christ if he, acting lawfully as a soldier or policeman, kills to uphold justice. God has killed many people justly.

John 18:36; Luke 19:10; Isaiah 2:4; and 11:9 teach the nature of the heavenly kingdom. But the kingdoms of men are upheld by armed might (John 18:36), they are ordained of God, and those who use force to uphold their just laws are God’s ministers (Romans 13:1-7). It is no sin to act as God’s minister to carry out a function He ordained.
Yes, Old Testament wars may be used to justify modern wars. In both covenants God forbids killing (Exodus 20:13; 1 John 3:15). But under both covenants He authorizes civil rulers, whether saints or sinners, to uphold justice by killing. Under both covenants the forbidden killing is murder, the unjust taking of human life.
Matthew 5:39 is in a context forbidding personal vengeance (verse 38). Yes, Jesus authorized the use of a weapon for personal defense (Luke 22:36). Matthew 26:52, a proverbial statement, correctly teaches that one whose spends his life using deadly force will probably die in that manner. Jesus doesn’t forbid one being a soldier or a policeman.
Ephesians 5:11 forbids sharing in sin. If it is a sin for a policeman to use force, I sin by asking him to protect me, for I’m sharing in his sin, even asking him to sin. The Amish are at least consistent here, for they refuse to seek police protection. The inspired apostle Paul had no such scruples (Acts 23:12-24).

Peter, this has been a good discussion, but it is time to end it. This will be my last reply on this subject. I will continue to study this and all subjects pertaining to my salvation and hope you will do so also.

With Brotherly Love,

Keith

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